Minutes
Monday 15th July 2013
6.15pm-7.30pm
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, N17
Monday 15th July 2013
6.15pm-7.30pm
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, N17
Attendees:
Ian Murphy, Head of Ticketing & Membership, THFC
Jonathan Waite, Customer Services & Supporter Liaison Manager, THFC
Beth Demery, Assistant Ticket Office Manager, THFC
Darren Alexander, Joint Chairman, THST
Katrina Law, Secretary, THST
THST had crowd-sourced suggestions for improving the existing loyalty point system via Social Media in the run up to this meeting. THST would then pose these questions to THFC for discussion.
The categorisations for 2013/2014 matches has been agreed as follows:
Cat A: Arsenal, City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, West Ham
Cat B: Fulham, Everton, Aston Villa, Sunderland, Southampton, Newcastle, Norwich, West Brom
Cat C: Swansea, Stoke, Cardiff, Crystal Palace, Hull City
All Cat A games are awarded 1 POINT, home or away
All Cat B games are awarded 3 POINTS, home or away
All Cat C games are awarded 5 POINTS, home or away
Questions from members:
1. More flexibility requested on renewal deadlines. Losing all points if people were a day late renewing membership was harsh
THFC makes every effort to ensure this doesn’t happen as an oversight by
the member simply forgetting to renew. Several reminders are already issued, the
top 1,000 on the ST waiting list will get a phone call, others an email or text
message. There is a degree of flexibility in place here already
2. FA Cup, Europa League, League Cups should have a higher amount of points
reward as the earlier rounds very rarely sell out and it would give an extra
incentive to fill the stadium
Early rounds are included in ST packages already and the danger would be
that some supporters buy tickets for the points only and don’t actually fill the
ground as pricing is usually lower for these rounds
3. Unfair that if you go to every round in a cup and Spurs reach the final,
there is no guarantee you will get a ticket. Separate scheme for cup
games?
For an FA Cup final, the allocation could be as low as c14K. Spurs have
c21K ST holders, so a third of them wouldn’t be able to get tickets as it
stands. There is a belief that when you buy a ST, you are buying access to a Cup
Final ticket and it is your choice whether you go to the earlier rounds in the
competition. This would be very hard on ST holders and open to exploitation of
people buying for cup games only, not attending the matches, just to secure a
final ticket
4. Use loyalty points for Cat A home games – big games should be based on points
not who has the quickest internet connection
The issue with home games is the price bandings. For away apps, it’s one
price generally, which makes it easier to work on a loyalty point system
For example, if a group of five members applied for Arsenal at home, one
had 300 points, two had 250 points, two had 200 points at what stage would that
group be given ticket priority? Say that group wanted seats in the Park Lane but
those had gone to the 300+ bracket so they were offered in the West Upper, what
would then happen? There are too many variables to make that work
Discussed opening up a week-long application window for all home games,
thus negating the need to be online at 09.30 on a Monday. Members would have one
week to apply and tickets would then be allocated in a ballot. Members would be
asked for an upper pricing limit on their apps so no one would be given tickets
in the West Upper when they were only willing to pay for South lower
Bronze members could have an earlier window, thus retaining the benefit
of the priority-booking window
To be explored further with research conducted before any major changes
were implemented ahead of the 2014/2015 season.
5. Online ticketing system is a disgrace
IM confirmed that 6,000 tickets had been sold in a 45-minute period for
the multi-game packages available to Bronze members recently. Additionally, the
1,000 tickets available to Bronze members for the home match against Swansea
City sold out in under an hour. In both instances the overwhelming majority of
tickets were sold via the online system
The Club is fully committed to making the process as slick as possible,
but the main issue is the high demand for a relatively low number of tickets.
Every onsale is monitored by THFC and Ticketmaster to ensure that any issues
that do arise are dealt with swiftly. During the initial stages of a sale for a
PL match, there are usually between 2,000 to 3,000 individuals in the queue to
access the ticketing site – overwhelmingly to purchase more than one ticket. The
online queue, while frustrating, is essential to ensure the system copes
satisfactorily with the demand
THFC did suggest (as outlined in Point 4) that rather than having tickets
on sale at a specific time and therefore creating a ‘pinch point’ with everyone
attempting to access tickets at the same time, it could look to introduce a
week-long application period for home games which would effectively bypass the
booking system as it currently stands
6. LP allocation should be higher for away games than home games
In theory, yes… but this opens up the exploitation of people buying away
tickets for the loyalty points and then not going to the matches
7. Major problem is people buying European away tickets for the points and
selling them on. Five points for Panathinaikos/ Inter last season being prime
examples
The only possible solution to ensure 100% attendance by those people that
purchase the tickets is asking fans to collect tickets in the city on match day,
as Man United does. IM expressed concerns that this is penalising genuine fans
by asking them to go to a specified point to pick up their tickets when they are
abroad for the day to enjoy themselves
Other option is to hand your ticket into a THFC steward in the ground,
who would cross check back at Spurs and award points retrospectively for
attendance, although this could present some operational challenges at some
smaller or less organised venues. Additionally many supporters like to retain
tickets for personal collections/souvenirs so again, not an ideal solution
Or portable bar code scanners at the ground, but this is reliant on
suitable WIFI provisions, which clearly can’t be guaranteed at every venue in
the UK, let alone abroad
8. More sensible allocation of points per game: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Agreed to look at how points are allocated. Historically, always 1 for
Cat A, 3 for Cat B, 5 for Cat C. Should be decided based on location of match,
date of match, time of match as well as category. That would mean bringing 2 and
4 in to play
Concerns this would create problems/ill-feeling as points couldn’t be
adjusted retrospectively i.e. Aston Villa has always been a 3 pointer. If it’s
adjusted to 4 points, those who’ve gone for the past 10 years may not be happy
it’s now a point more
THST’s stance is to communicate this early. Say now this will start from
2014. Then fans know the system is changing and have time to accept and
adjust
9. Stop zero-ing members once they get a season ticket
No. No need. Every ST holder takes priority over every member in terms of
tickets anyway. Two different schemes
10. Points for failed applications or the rich get richer
Not possible or everyone would apply for every away game with no
intention of travelling
11.
Leeds has a small % of tickets for all away games that go to members. Trial
this
The vast majority of away games are open to members anyway. Only a couple
each season which sell out to ST holders solely
12.
Only 1 point to go up North regardless of who you’re playing is a
joke
Yes – noted and this would be addressed by utilising 2 and 4 points and
working on a location, time, day etc. points allocation
Questions from Season Ticket holders:
1. The four-year cycle rewards recent opportunity, not loyalty
LPs were introduced in 2001. Those attending Spurs since the 60s and 70s
had decades with no points allocated. Not the case
2. Stop prioritising ticket sales to people prepared to pay for expensive
executive packages, thereby undermining all loyalty allocation arguments
anyway
VIP trips. 9% went to hospitality only. The 9% figure is used as it
equates to the percentage of White Hart Lane that is sold as hospitality
memberships (including boxes). These members do not have a loyalty point system
despite having seasonal memberships so need to have some access to away match
tickets
THST challenged that figure as that would be 260 from a 2,900 allocation
going to Arsenal, which didn’t seem fair.
No resolution on this
3. Stop overpricing official Club flights to European away games and using
ticket sale restrictions to force people into buying them
The official Thomas Cook Sport travel packages are designed to cater for
the still sizeable element of our travelling fan base who want the security and
convenience offered by an official trip. THFC always tries to operate on the
same loyalty point level but due to the necessity in filling the flight, the
Club will occasionally go to a lower level of LP to ensure the flight is viable.
More complaints are received from supporters when official travel options are
not provided than when flight packages are allocated to fans with less LPs
The prices of the Thomas Cook Sport official travel packages remain
competitive. There will be a slight price differential on some, but not all,
scheduled travel options due to the costs incurred in hiring aircraft, sometimes
in peak holiday season with up to 8 other British football clubs all seeking
similar services at exactly the same time, the additional charges levied by
airports (bespoke landing fees and take off slots inserted into the usual
airport operating timetables to cater for supporters) and providing resource on
the flights and in the host city visited
4. Maternity leave for ST holders?
Hadn’t been considered. Could be but chances are paternity leave would
then need to be offered, which would get complicated. Similarly, sabbaticals
from season tickets had been discussed but were thought to be unfair to the ST
waiting list
IM did clearly state that he is open to considering any sensible
suggestions to adapting or enhancing the loyalty point process that would be of
benefit to the majority of the membership base. The problem with any loyalty
system is that it is a very subjective and emotive topic and one where it is
impossible to please everyone
Action points from the meeting
Meeting ended at 7.30pm
Ian Murphy, Head of Ticketing & Membership, THFC
Jonathan Waite, Customer Services & Supporter Liaison Manager, THFC
Beth Demery, Assistant Ticket Office Manager, THFC
Darren Alexander, Joint Chairman, THST
Katrina Law, Secretary, THST
THST had crowd-sourced suggestions for improving the existing loyalty point system via Social Media in the run up to this meeting. THST would then pose these questions to THFC for discussion.
The categorisations for 2013/2014 matches has been agreed as follows:
Cat A: Arsenal, City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, West Ham
Cat B: Fulham, Everton, Aston Villa, Sunderland, Southampton, Newcastle, Norwich, West Brom
Cat C: Swansea, Stoke, Cardiff, Crystal Palace, Hull City
All Cat A games are awarded 1 POINT, home or away
All Cat B games are awarded 3 POINTS, home or away
All Cat C games are awarded 5 POINTS, home or away
Questions from members:
1. More flexibility requested on renewal deadlines. Losing all points if people were a day late renewing membership was harsh
THFC makes every effort to ensure this doesn’t happen as an oversight by
the member simply forgetting to renew. Several reminders are already issued, the
top 1,000 on the ST waiting list will get a phone call, others an email or text
message. There is a degree of flexibility in place here already
2. FA Cup, Europa League, League Cups should have a higher amount of points
reward as the earlier rounds very rarely sell out and it would give an extra
incentive to fill the stadium
Early rounds are included in ST packages already and the danger would be
that some supporters buy tickets for the points only and don’t actually fill the
ground as pricing is usually lower for these rounds
3. Unfair that if you go to every round in a cup and Spurs reach the final,
there is no guarantee you will get a ticket. Separate scheme for cup
games?
For an FA Cup final, the allocation could be as low as c14K. Spurs have
c21K ST holders, so a third of them wouldn’t be able to get tickets as it
stands. There is a belief that when you buy a ST, you are buying access to a Cup
Final ticket and it is your choice whether you go to the earlier rounds in the
competition. This would be very hard on ST holders and open to exploitation of
people buying for cup games only, not attending the matches, just to secure a
final ticket
4. Use loyalty points for Cat A home games – big games should be based on points
not who has the quickest internet connection
The issue with home games is the price bandings. For away apps, it’s one
price generally, which makes it easier to work on a loyalty point system
For example, if a group of five members applied for Arsenal at home, one
had 300 points, two had 250 points, two had 200 points at what stage would that
group be given ticket priority? Say that group wanted seats in the Park Lane but
those had gone to the 300+ bracket so they were offered in the West Upper, what
would then happen? There are too many variables to make that work
Discussed opening up a week-long application window for all home games,
thus negating the need to be online at 09.30 on a Monday. Members would have one
week to apply and tickets would then be allocated in a ballot. Members would be
asked for an upper pricing limit on their apps so no one would be given tickets
in the West Upper when they were only willing to pay for South lower
Bronze members could have an earlier window, thus retaining the benefit
of the priority-booking window
To be explored further with research conducted before any major changes
were implemented ahead of the 2014/2015 season.
5. Online ticketing system is a disgrace
IM confirmed that 6,000 tickets had been sold in a 45-minute period for
the multi-game packages available to Bronze members recently. Additionally, the
1,000 tickets available to Bronze members for the home match against Swansea
City sold out in under an hour. In both instances the overwhelming majority of
tickets were sold via the online system
The Club is fully committed to making the process as slick as possible,
but the main issue is the high demand for a relatively low number of tickets.
Every onsale is monitored by THFC and Ticketmaster to ensure that any issues
that do arise are dealt with swiftly. During the initial stages of a sale for a
PL match, there are usually between 2,000 to 3,000 individuals in the queue to
access the ticketing site – overwhelmingly to purchase more than one ticket. The
online queue, while frustrating, is essential to ensure the system copes
satisfactorily with the demand
THFC did suggest (as outlined in Point 4) that rather than having tickets
on sale at a specific time and therefore creating a ‘pinch point’ with everyone
attempting to access tickets at the same time, it could look to introduce a
week-long application period for home games which would effectively bypass the
booking system as it currently stands
6. LP allocation should be higher for away games than home games
In theory, yes… but this opens up the exploitation of people buying away
tickets for the loyalty points and then not going to the matches
7. Major problem is people buying European away tickets for the points and
selling them on. Five points for Panathinaikos/ Inter last season being prime
examples
The only possible solution to ensure 100% attendance by those people that
purchase the tickets is asking fans to collect tickets in the city on match day,
as Man United does. IM expressed concerns that this is penalising genuine fans
by asking them to go to a specified point to pick up their tickets when they are
abroad for the day to enjoy themselves
Other option is to hand your ticket into a THFC steward in the ground,
who would cross check back at Spurs and award points retrospectively for
attendance, although this could present some operational challenges at some
smaller or less organised venues. Additionally many supporters like to retain
tickets for personal collections/souvenirs so again, not an ideal solution
Or portable bar code scanners at the ground, but this is reliant on
suitable WIFI provisions, which clearly can’t be guaranteed at every venue in
the UK, let alone abroad
8. More sensible allocation of points per game: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Agreed to look at how points are allocated. Historically, always 1 for
Cat A, 3 for Cat B, 5 for Cat C. Should be decided based on location of match,
date of match, time of match as well as category. That would mean bringing 2 and
4 in to play
Concerns this would create problems/ill-feeling as points couldn’t be
adjusted retrospectively i.e. Aston Villa has always been a 3 pointer. If it’s
adjusted to 4 points, those who’ve gone for the past 10 years may not be happy
it’s now a point more
THST’s stance is to communicate this early. Say now this will start from
2014. Then fans know the system is changing and have time to accept and
adjust
9. Stop zero-ing members once they get a season ticket
No. No need. Every ST holder takes priority over every member in terms of
tickets anyway. Two different schemes
10. Points for failed applications or the rich get richer
Not possible or everyone would apply for every away game with no
intention of travelling
11.
Leeds has a small % of tickets for all away games that go to members. Trial
this
The vast majority of away games are open to members anyway. Only a couple
each season which sell out to ST holders solely
12.
Only 1 point to go up North regardless of who you’re playing is a
joke
Yes – noted and this would be addressed by utilising 2 and 4 points and
working on a location, time, day etc. points allocation
Questions from Season Ticket holders:
1. The four-year cycle rewards recent opportunity, not loyalty
LPs were introduced in 2001. Those attending Spurs since the 60s and 70s
had decades with no points allocated. Not the case
2. Stop prioritising ticket sales to people prepared to pay for expensive
executive packages, thereby undermining all loyalty allocation arguments
anyway
VIP trips. 9% went to hospitality only. The 9% figure is used as it
equates to the percentage of White Hart Lane that is sold as hospitality
memberships (including boxes). These members do not have a loyalty point system
despite having seasonal memberships so need to have some access to away match
tickets
THST challenged that figure as that would be 260 from a 2,900 allocation
going to Arsenal, which didn’t seem fair.
No resolution on this
3. Stop overpricing official Club flights to European away games and using
ticket sale restrictions to force people into buying them
The official Thomas Cook Sport travel packages are designed to cater for
the still sizeable element of our travelling fan base who want the security and
convenience offered by an official trip. THFC always tries to operate on the
same loyalty point level but due to the necessity in filling the flight, the
Club will occasionally go to a lower level of LP to ensure the flight is viable.
More complaints are received from supporters when official travel options are
not provided than when flight packages are allocated to fans with less LPs
The prices of the Thomas Cook Sport official travel packages remain
competitive. There will be a slight price differential on some, but not all,
scheduled travel options due to the costs incurred in hiring aircraft, sometimes
in peak holiday season with up to 8 other British football clubs all seeking
similar services at exactly the same time, the additional charges levied by
airports (bespoke landing fees and take off slots inserted into the usual
airport operating timetables to cater for supporters) and providing resource on
the flights and in the host city visited
4. Maternity leave for ST holders?
Hadn’t been considered. Could be but chances are paternity leave would
then need to be offered, which would get complicated. Similarly, sabbaticals
from season tickets had been discussed but were thought to be unfair to the ST
waiting list
IM did clearly state that he is open to considering any sensible
suggestions to adapting or enhancing the loyalty point process that would be of
benefit to the majority of the membership base. The problem with any loyalty
system is that it is a very subjective and emotive topic and one where it is
impossible to please everyone
Action points from the meeting
- Further discussions around the possibility of opening up a week long members
application window for Cat A / all home games - Further discussions around the issuing of European away tickets
- Further discussions around the assigning of loyalty points to specific fixtures, taking into account the opposition, location, time and date of match. Possibly utilising points 2 and 4, as well as 1, 3 and 5
Meeting ended at 7.30pm
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