Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust, THFC, Police & Safety Forum Meeting
Minutes: Monday 9 June 2014
6.00pm-8.10pm
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, N17
Minutes: Monday 9 June 2014
6.00pm-8.10pm
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, N17
Attendees:
Sue Tilling, Safety Officer, THFC
Constable Steve Payne, Football Intelligence Officer, Metropolitan Police
Brian Awty, British Transport Police
Bob McIver, Head of Building Control, Haringey Council
Katrina Law, Secretary, THST
Martin Cloake, THST
Paul Head, THST
Suraj Sharma, THST
Bernie Kingsley
Gary Flavell, The Fighting Cock/ 1882
1. Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ)
With the extended CPZ coming into effect in March, from next season there will be 18 locations across 12 roads in and around Tottenham which were previously restricted to residents parking that are now available to supporters on a PAY TO PARK basis on match days, at a rate of c £10.
- Payment is via a phone number or text service and these spaces will be available on a first come, first served basis on the following roads:
Marigold Road, Garman Road (Near Marsh Lane), Garman Road, Sedge Road, Willoughby Lane, Tarriff Road, Commercial Road, Pretoria Road, White Hart Lane, Queen Street, Selby Road,, Weir Hall Road
- The total number of spaces available was not known at this stage. BM of HC to follow up with ST of THFC
2. High Road post match traffic management
BK questioned how Arsenal and Chelsea, as examples, managed to achieve totally traffic free zones post match when Tottenham seemed unable to do so (in the High Road)
- SP of MP confirmed that a Traffic Officer/ Traffic Marshall (employed by a contractor appointed by THFC) would be deployed on each of the four side roads identified as responsible for feeding onto the main High Road for next season, which should help with this
- Private car parks, however, were not as easy to control
- SP of MP confirmed that all visiting coaches will be parked on West Road as opposed to Worcester Avenue from August, which should speed up the release from car parks etc. by 10 – 15 minutes
- ST of THFC shared that the Club car park on Paxton Road was no longer operational, meaning a significant reduction in corporate parking offered on a match day
3. White Hart Lane Station
BK noted that queuing Southbound post match was generally well controlled
- Northbound was problematic, however. There was congestion at the top of the staircase onto the platform that caused the gates to close on occasion. The far end of the platform was often empty meaning 8 coach trains regularly departed with only 4 coaches full as customers could not negotiate the bottle neck to move further down the platform
- BA of BTP commented that this was an issue for the station staff, primarily
- BK suggested building a second staircase to access the platform at the other end as well as at the front
- BK also suggested an additional indicator board could be installed at the other end of the platform
- BTP and MP confirmed a new station would be built to accommodate the fans travelling to and from the new stadium. This would be a complete redesign
- ST of THFC is meeting with the WHL station manager at the end of July. BTP and MP to attend.
- KL of THST and BK asked that timetables for match days are set with football in mind i.e. a 3pm KO isn’t going to finish exactly at 4.45pm. So any additional services need to be at 5.05pm/ 5.10pm as opposed to 4.50pm/ 4.55pm. Don’t run extra trains that you can only catch if you leave the ground early! ST and MP to discuss at meeting and report back to THST
4. Man Utd allocation at White Hart Lane
KL explained that THST operated in a way that was different to earlier iterations of the Trust in that we worked closely with other Trusts on issues that affected all of us. Coalition campaigning had been a big plus for THST last season. With this in mind, we’d agreed to raise the issue of the Manchester United allocation at White Hart Lane, on behalf of our counterparts at the Manchester United Supporters’ Trust
- THST campaigned hard against allocations for Spurs fans being reduced, particularly at the Emirates stadium, last season and we've also argued on a number of occasions that all fans should not be punished for the actions of a minority - so this approach has to apply to all fans across the board. We want to see all fans treated in the way we would expect to be treated
- Since 2009/10, MUFC fans have received c 1900 tickets for their Premier League matches at Tottenham – a reduction of c 1100 tickets on a standard allocation
- Various reasons have been given for this reduction including persistent standing in an upper tier, poor behaviour at the turnstiles at the 2012/13 match and bad behaviour at not only WHL but other PL grounds throughout the season
- KL asked ST of THFC and BM of HC to confirm the situation for 2014/2015
- It was confirmed MUFC fans would be monitored in the run up to the match at WHL and a decision would be made c 8 weeks in advance of the fixture
- There was an appetite to award a partial increase to MUFC providing there weren’t any major incidents in the run up
- BM of HC agreed to speak with MUST ahead of any decision being made on their allocation next season. MUST to make contact accordingly
- KL stressed the importance of engaging supporter groups in discussions such as these, where peer to peer influence can be a real factor and where fans can be formally represented and allowed to express their points of view
- It was agreed there was definitely an opportunity for dialogue here
- It was also stressed that this kind of decision was not solely about Man United. Any Club with any fans who behaved poorly at various grounds across the country would be monitored and allocations cut, if necessary.
5. Segregation at Benfica, learnings
ST of THFC had provided THST with a full explanation as to the issues at the Benfica home match immediately after the game. These can be viewed on our website at /thst-updates/ticketing-and-safety-update-spurs-v-benfica,-13th-march-2014.aspx
- ST of THFC confirmed that the match had gone to general sale on a Friday and was stopped on the Monday when concerns were raised
- It needs to be noted that THFC has a high number of Portuguese Spurs fans on its database
- On the night, there were c 1100 Benfica fans in pockets around the stadium
- Most of those who’d bought during the General Sales window were families
- There were no ‘running battles’ on the night and no reported incidents inside the ground
- However, this situation will not arise again as there was now a rule in place that, in order for a European tie to go on General Sale, it needs to be signed off by a THFC Director
- Another block would be put aside for away fans in case the home take up isn’t good
- The pricing of the Benfica match was also noted as a factor as to why Spurs fans hadn’t jumped on the tickets. This was to be discussed with Ian Murphy, Head of Ticketing and Membership, when considering pricing for next season’s UEL
- THFC also confirmed the mandatory UEFA allocation for away supporters in the top priced seats in the house increased as the competition progressed. Starting at 200 and moving upwards. This means there always has to be a block of away fans in the West Upper, in addition to the UEFA allocation for their officials, delegates and media.
6. 1882 – learnings
GF of TFC/1882 commented on the 1882 event in Block J v Hull in the COC last season. It was agreed by all parties this was not a suitable home for 1882 and that Block 35 in the South Lower worked far better
- Like-minded people were already sitting in that stand
- Persistent standing wasn’t deemed to be a massive issue with an impasse between fans and Stewards at present
- Stewards were allocated appropriately to 1882 blocks i.e. those who appreciated the aims of the movement and that fans would be more vocal and more animated in those areas
- It was felt there was an equilibrium at present
- There was a definite appetite to grow 1882 when looking towards the new stadium
- GF of TFC and ST of THFC were happy with the current arrangements in terms of flags, banners entering the ground etc.
7. StubHub – any issues?
Whilst it was acknowledged that a fair percentage of tickets traded on the StubHub facility went to overseas visitors, there was no indication they were selling to away fans. SP of MP confirmed there hadn’t been any issues as a result of seat purchases on StubHub. No segregation issues etc., although SP of MP confirmed segregation issues had originally been a worry with a scheme the police viewed as legalised touting
- No indication that the level of on-street touting had reduced
8. Hate Crime
MC and KL of THST asked for confirmation of the Met’s stance on the Y Word following the CPS’s decision to discontinue the cases against the 3 Spurs fans on 7th March. As far as the Met is concerned, this is no longer an arrestable offence, however, should an individual make a formal complaint, fans could still be charged for using the term
- Arrest figures for last season at White Hart Lane included 8 arrests for racially aggravated offences. This comprised the 3 Spurs fans arrested for using the term ‘Yid’
- SP of MP confirmed that police had come under pressure to make arrests
- MC of THST asked if action would be taken over anti-Semitic chanting directed at Spurs fans. SP of MP confirmed that there was a clear difference between songs about gas chambers etc. directed at Spurs fans and Spurs fans singing the Y word, and that the former was an offence
- KL of THST commented on the good work by the Met around online anti-Semitism last season and hoped this would continue next year
9. Consultation/ Development
MC of THST suggested several areas for improvement in terms of supporter involvement and communications. This included Twitter accounts for Club SLO’s (Supporter Liaison Officers) and FIO’s (Football Intelligence Officers) to increase an understanding of their work and to quickly communicate and engage on key messages
- MC of THST asked if meetings of the group could be held before high-profile matches at which fan representatives from both clubs could attend and be consulted. Those present saw no reason why this should not happen
- Banning orders – MC of THST asked for clarification on THFC’s policy on banning orders. ST of THFC confirmed that once an arrest had been made at a game, the fan would be banned from the stadium with immediate effect until the case had been to court. Should the individual be found not guilty, the ban would be lifted immediately and any funds reimbursed. MC expressed the view that banning orders should only be implemented once a serious offence had been proven
- ST of THFC also reiterated that each case is looked at individually and there are occasions on which a stadium ban has been revoked early, depending on circumstances
- MC of THST asked whether the Club would consider Restorative Justice for offenders. ST of THFC was open to this and indicated the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation would certainly be interested
- ST of THFC invited those present to spend a day behind the scenes at the Club to gain a better understanding of what’s involved in the build-up and post-match periods. This was welcomed and ST would advise which games were suitable once fixtures were confirmed
10. AOB
KL of THST raised the issue of a larger surfing flag for Park Lane lower next season. BM of HC and ST of THFC were receptive and the flag will be allowed to cover vomitories in start position providing this is managed. KL to follow up with ST over the summer
- Safety Advisory Groups – SAG’s normally consist of a Council rep, Club Safety Officer, Club Director, Local Police rep, British Transport Police rep, Fire Brigade rep, St John’s Ambulance rep and any other medical bodies rep and a FLA rep. They make decisions on issues such as away ticket allocations and all the safety considerations around putting on a match (policing, stewarding etc.)
BK asked whether there was a possibility a fans rep could sit on Haringey’s SAG moving forward, as the decisions being reached affected them the most. BM of HC was open to this suggestion and this is something that will be discussed and, hopefully, actioned over the summer
- Arrest figures for last season:
47 arrests across 27 homes games at WHL
29 home fans
18 away fans
18 out of the 47 arrests across last season occurred at the West Ham match in October 2013
Meeting concluded at 8.10pm
Sue Tilling, Safety Officer, THFC
Constable Steve Payne, Football Intelligence Officer, Metropolitan Police
Brian Awty, British Transport Police
Bob McIver, Head of Building Control, Haringey Council
Katrina Law, Secretary, THST
Martin Cloake, THST
Paul Head, THST
Suraj Sharma, THST
Bernie Kingsley
Gary Flavell, The Fighting Cock/ 1882
1. Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ)
With the extended CPZ coming into effect in March, from next season there will be 18 locations across 12 roads in and around Tottenham which were previously restricted to residents parking that are now available to supporters on a PAY TO PARK basis on match days, at a rate of c £10.
- Payment is via a phone number or text service and these spaces will be available on a first come, first served basis on the following roads:
Marigold Road, Garman Road (Near Marsh Lane), Garman Road, Sedge Road, Willoughby Lane, Tarriff Road, Commercial Road, Pretoria Road, White Hart Lane, Queen Street, Selby Road,, Weir Hall Road
- The total number of spaces available was not known at this stage. BM of HC to follow up with ST of THFC
2. High Road post match traffic management
BK questioned how Arsenal and Chelsea, as examples, managed to achieve totally traffic free zones post match when Tottenham seemed unable to do so (in the High Road)
- SP of MP confirmed that a Traffic Officer/ Traffic Marshall (employed by a contractor appointed by THFC) would be deployed on each of the four side roads identified as responsible for feeding onto the main High Road for next season, which should help with this
- Private car parks, however, were not as easy to control
- SP of MP confirmed that all visiting coaches will be parked on West Road as opposed to Worcester Avenue from August, which should speed up the release from car parks etc. by 10 – 15 minutes
- ST of THFC shared that the Club car park on Paxton Road was no longer operational, meaning a significant reduction in corporate parking offered on a match day
3. White Hart Lane Station
BK noted that queuing Southbound post match was generally well controlled
- Northbound was problematic, however. There was congestion at the top of the staircase onto the platform that caused the gates to close on occasion. The far end of the platform was often empty meaning 8 coach trains regularly departed with only 4 coaches full as customers could not negotiate the bottle neck to move further down the platform
- BA of BTP commented that this was an issue for the station staff, primarily
- BK suggested building a second staircase to access the platform at the other end as well as at the front
- BK also suggested an additional indicator board could be installed at the other end of the platform
- BTP and MP confirmed a new station would be built to accommodate the fans travelling to and from the new stadium. This would be a complete redesign
- ST of THFC is meeting with the WHL station manager at the end of July. BTP and MP to attend.
- KL of THST and BK asked that timetables for match days are set with football in mind i.e. a 3pm KO isn’t going to finish exactly at 4.45pm. So any additional services need to be at 5.05pm/ 5.10pm as opposed to 4.50pm/ 4.55pm. Don’t run extra trains that you can only catch if you leave the ground early! ST and MP to discuss at meeting and report back to THST
4. Man Utd allocation at White Hart Lane
KL explained that THST operated in a way that was different to earlier iterations of the Trust in that we worked closely with other Trusts on issues that affected all of us. Coalition campaigning had been a big plus for THST last season. With this in mind, we’d agreed to raise the issue of the Manchester United allocation at White Hart Lane, on behalf of our counterparts at the Manchester United Supporters’ Trust
- THST campaigned hard against allocations for Spurs fans being reduced, particularly at the Emirates stadium, last season and we've also argued on a number of occasions that all fans should not be punished for the actions of a minority - so this approach has to apply to all fans across the board. We want to see all fans treated in the way we would expect to be treated
- Since 2009/10, MUFC fans have received c 1900 tickets for their Premier League matches at Tottenham – a reduction of c 1100 tickets on a standard allocation
- Various reasons have been given for this reduction including persistent standing in an upper tier, poor behaviour at the turnstiles at the 2012/13 match and bad behaviour at not only WHL but other PL grounds throughout the season
- KL asked ST of THFC and BM of HC to confirm the situation for 2014/2015
- It was confirmed MUFC fans would be monitored in the run up to the match at WHL and a decision would be made c 8 weeks in advance of the fixture
- There was an appetite to award a partial increase to MUFC providing there weren’t any major incidents in the run up
- BM of HC agreed to speak with MUST ahead of any decision being made on their allocation next season. MUST to make contact accordingly
- KL stressed the importance of engaging supporter groups in discussions such as these, where peer to peer influence can be a real factor and where fans can be formally represented and allowed to express their points of view
- It was agreed there was definitely an opportunity for dialogue here
- It was also stressed that this kind of decision was not solely about Man United. Any Club with any fans who behaved poorly at various grounds across the country would be monitored and allocations cut, if necessary.
5. Segregation at Benfica, learnings
ST of THFC had provided THST with a full explanation as to the issues at the Benfica home match immediately after the game. These can be viewed on our website at /thst-updates/ticketing-and-safety-update-spurs-v-benfica,-13th-march-2014.aspx
- ST of THFC confirmed that the match had gone to general sale on a Friday and was stopped on the Monday when concerns were raised
- It needs to be noted that THFC has a high number of Portuguese Spurs fans on its database
- On the night, there were c 1100 Benfica fans in pockets around the stadium
- Most of those who’d bought during the General Sales window were families
- There were no ‘running battles’ on the night and no reported incidents inside the ground
- However, this situation will not arise again as there was now a rule in place that, in order for a European tie to go on General Sale, it needs to be signed off by a THFC Director
- Another block would be put aside for away fans in case the home take up isn’t good
- The pricing of the Benfica match was also noted as a factor as to why Spurs fans hadn’t jumped on the tickets. This was to be discussed with Ian Murphy, Head of Ticketing and Membership, when considering pricing for next season’s UEL
- THFC also confirmed the mandatory UEFA allocation for away supporters in the top priced seats in the house increased as the competition progressed. Starting at 200 and moving upwards. This means there always has to be a block of away fans in the West Upper, in addition to the UEFA allocation for their officials, delegates and media.
6. 1882 – learnings
GF of TFC/1882 commented on the 1882 event in Block J v Hull in the COC last season. It was agreed by all parties this was not a suitable home for 1882 and that Block 35 in the South Lower worked far better
- Like-minded people were already sitting in that stand
- Persistent standing wasn’t deemed to be a massive issue with an impasse between fans and Stewards at present
- Stewards were allocated appropriately to 1882 blocks i.e. those who appreciated the aims of the movement and that fans would be more vocal and more animated in those areas
- It was felt there was an equilibrium at present
- There was a definite appetite to grow 1882 when looking towards the new stadium
- GF of TFC and ST of THFC were happy with the current arrangements in terms of flags, banners entering the ground etc.
7. StubHub – any issues?
Whilst it was acknowledged that a fair percentage of tickets traded on the StubHub facility went to overseas visitors, there was no indication they were selling to away fans. SP of MP confirmed there hadn’t been any issues as a result of seat purchases on StubHub. No segregation issues etc., although SP of MP confirmed segregation issues had originally been a worry with a scheme the police viewed as legalised touting
- No indication that the level of on-street touting had reduced
8. Hate Crime
MC and KL of THST asked for confirmation of the Met’s stance on the Y Word following the CPS’s decision to discontinue the cases against the 3 Spurs fans on 7th March. As far as the Met is concerned, this is no longer an arrestable offence, however, should an individual make a formal complaint, fans could still be charged for using the term
- Arrest figures for last season at White Hart Lane included 8 arrests for racially aggravated offences. This comprised the 3 Spurs fans arrested for using the term ‘Yid’
- SP of MP confirmed that police had come under pressure to make arrests
- MC of THST asked if action would be taken over anti-Semitic chanting directed at Spurs fans. SP of MP confirmed that there was a clear difference between songs about gas chambers etc. directed at Spurs fans and Spurs fans singing the Y word, and that the former was an offence
- KL of THST commented on the good work by the Met around online anti-Semitism last season and hoped this would continue next year
9. Consultation/ Development
MC of THST suggested several areas for improvement in terms of supporter involvement and communications. This included Twitter accounts for Club SLO’s (Supporter Liaison Officers) and FIO’s (Football Intelligence Officers) to increase an understanding of their work and to quickly communicate and engage on key messages
- MC of THST asked if meetings of the group could be held before high-profile matches at which fan representatives from both clubs could attend and be consulted. Those present saw no reason why this should not happen
- Banning orders – MC of THST asked for clarification on THFC’s policy on banning orders. ST of THFC confirmed that once an arrest had been made at a game, the fan would be banned from the stadium with immediate effect until the case had been to court. Should the individual be found not guilty, the ban would be lifted immediately and any funds reimbursed. MC expressed the view that banning orders should only be implemented once a serious offence had been proven
- ST of THFC also reiterated that each case is looked at individually and there are occasions on which a stadium ban has been revoked early, depending on circumstances
- MC of THST asked whether the Club would consider Restorative Justice for offenders. ST of THFC was open to this and indicated the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation would certainly be interested
- ST of THFC invited those present to spend a day behind the scenes at the Club to gain a better understanding of what’s involved in the build-up and post-match periods. This was welcomed and ST would advise which games were suitable once fixtures were confirmed
10. AOB
KL of THST raised the issue of a larger surfing flag for Park Lane lower next season. BM of HC and ST of THFC were receptive and the flag will be allowed to cover vomitories in start position providing this is managed. KL to follow up with ST over the summer
- Safety Advisory Groups – SAG’s normally consist of a Council rep, Club Safety Officer, Club Director, Local Police rep, British Transport Police rep, Fire Brigade rep, St John’s Ambulance rep and any other medical bodies rep and a FLA rep. They make decisions on issues such as away ticket allocations and all the safety considerations around putting on a match (policing, stewarding etc.)
BK asked whether there was a possibility a fans rep could sit on Haringey’s SAG moving forward, as the decisions being reached affected them the most. BM of HC was open to this suggestion and this is something that will be discussed and, hopefully, actioned over the summer
- Arrest figures for last season:
47 arrests across 27 homes games at WHL
29 home fans
18 away fans
18 out of the 47 arrests across last season occurred at the West Ham match in October 2013
Meeting concluded at 8.10pm
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